Question:
Can I change the price of the stock?
vanillasnake21
2010-11-11 07:45:43 UTC
I asked a question a few weeks ago about how the stock price is set, and basically the answer was that people (traders) determine that, so that the last price at which the trade was exectuted becomes the new stock price. So this is a follow up question. Lets say I buy a decent amount of shares in a medium (about 20M capital) company, for about 0.35 a share. And I arrange it so that my buddy places a buy limit order on his computer for $3.00 and I place a sell limit order for $3.00 also. Question 1: Will that trade be executed, meaning will our brokers be able to match us up properly considering that our bid and ask prices differ by so much from the market price (for simplicity lets say we have the same broker). Question 2: Will that become the new price of the stock?
Seven answers:
S
2010-11-11 08:14:29 UTC
Sounds like you are trying to manipulate the price. Yes people determine the price in the form of supply versus demand. If there is more demand than supply, price will go up and vice versa. The retail traders like you and me do not have a large effect on the price but the institutions such as mutual funds, hedge funds, and investment banks do since their trades are 100-1000 times ours in volume. So you and your buddy cannot manipulate the price unless you are talking about a large block of stock.



So the price is currently trading at .35 and you want to sell at 3.00. If your buddy places an order to buy your shares at 3.00, he only can place a 3.00 limit order which will be filled at 3.00 or better (.35) or a buy stop order at 3.00 which will be filled once the price naturally inches up to 3.00. You would be place your sell order at 3.00 limit which will be filled once the price naturally inches up to 3.00. Or it can gap up past 3.00 on some really good news and both of you will be filled.



Most of the time both brokers will send the orders to a stock exchange to be executed. If there is a wide difference between the order price and the market price, the order is parked on the broker's server until the price is reasonably close to the order price which then will be sent to the exchange or some brokers may reject the order due slim chance of being filled. If you and your buddy's brokers are the same, the broker will fill both of you once the price has reach 3.00 naturally thus bypassing the exchange and their fees. Once you are filled, price will be around 3.00 if got there naturally but who knows what after a gap.
Indie_Indeep
2010-11-11 10:02:33 UTC
You sound very new to investing, here below is a list of things to consider and use as points of study. After that I'll tell you how stocks and markets ARE manipulated and show a way that some entities use to do this.



1- What you are proposing is a felony (conspiracy to manipulate the market) and if caught, you and anyone else involved would be subject to fines and/or prison. The street term for what you describe is a "wash trade" or "churning". I believe the price would rise but not the way you think it could.



2- A company with $20M in market capitalization is considered a Micro-cap- No where near a Mid- cap- These usually trade on the OTC exchange at one of several levels that have been established to reflect the current financial and regulatory status of a particular company.



2a- Most OTC stocks are thinly traded, which means the spread between the buy price and the sell price can be much larger than is seen on the major exchanges. There are a few which are more active and so may have a smaller spread.



3- Your broker is not typically the entity matching orders. In-house routing is done at some brokerages but even with that. What I describe below is likely to happen "in house" as well, and legitimately as there is no spread between the prices of your $3.00 attempted transaction so the "duty to improve" wouldn't require the match of 2 orders with the same price and they would likely improve your buddies price as well as the price of another client selling.



3a It is the Market Specialist or Market Maker (MM) for that stock (perhaps only one with the stock you describe). Market Makers among other things are able to buy and sell stock- - They are tasked to keep an orderly market in certain investment vehicles including stock(s). MMs typically make their money through the spread. That is the difference between the buy and sell price- you are probably used to seeing a small spread and depending on the type of access you have to markets, usually level 1 or level 2 at your brokerage. For the OTC info go to their site. MMs have books with current buy and sell orders.



OK here is the "bit" I think what would likely happen is the MM would sell stock to your friend, from his own inventory, or sell short and then replace with shares purchased from the order book. MMs are also able to make money in this manner. The bid priced would be improved to some degree to make the transaction legal. This could have the tendency to raise the price depending on the amount of money involved- It might be replaced with a single order if your buddy was only dealing with a few thousand shares (not much impact). If it was for a larger order and selling lots were being taken out then the price would increase naturally, be cause the deeper into the book the MM had to go the higher the asking prices would be. If the book was used up the MM might go to a friend or other place or might go to the market and prices would pick up where the book left off.



Market Manipulation is something that happens everyday in the markets- usually done by large entities/participants with impunity. An individual attempting to do the same thing probably would have a higher chance of being caught... There is constant complaining about lack of FTC oversight etc. It is way too much to go into here but all of the info (pro and con) is out there if you are really interested.



"Search engines are your friends"-



"When it comes to questions about the market there is one ultimate answer 90% of the time- MONEY!"



Best Regards Indie_Indeep
John W
2010-11-11 10:38:20 UTC
If your buddy's buy order is placed first, it will be matched with the lowest ask price on the books which will undeniably be lower than his bid price hence he will get that low ask price and by the time your sell order hits the books, your buddy's buy order will already be matched with a lower priced sell so your order will just become a high priced ask on the order book.



If you placed your sell order first, none of the bid prices will be high enough so your sell order will go onto the order book as a high priced ask. When your buddy places his buy order, his order will be matched with the lowest ask price on the order book which won't be your sell order so he'll get a lower price.



The only way your buddy's buy order would buy any of your $3 shares would be if he bought up all the lower priced sell orders first and that could be an awful lot of stock that he would have to buy.



Remember a buy limit order is buy at the lowest price but no higher than the limit not a buy at the highest price but no higher than the limit. Likewise a sell limit order is a sell at the highest price but no lower than the limit not a sell at the lowest price but no lower than the limit.



With low liquidity stocks such as penny stocks, people might toss in the occasional teaser trades to make it look like the price is going up in hopes of attracting some attention and momentum and then unload to that momentum but there are regulations against price manipulations.
Mike
2010-11-11 08:18:21 UTC
If you both placed an "all or none" order that might work but you would end up with a tax bill of likely over $2 million. Also, if there is someone selling that many shares at a lower price at the same time your buddy places his buy order, the transaction will be between that person and your buddy. Therefore your buddy could end up paying about 9x more for the shares than they are worth.



Also there are high frequency traders (hedge funds and other professional traders) that are constantly scanning bid/ask prices under program control and if they see an ask price that high, they could possibly place an ask slightly lower than you within microseconds of you placing the order.
roderick_young
2010-11-11 08:03:34 UTC
If no one else is bidding or asking, yes. But if there is anyone else queued up, your buddy's $3.00 buy order will buy at the cheapest price available, likely closer to 35 cents, and your sell order will sit unfilled.
2010-11-11 10:35:42 UTC
Jesus Christ. If I were you I would spend my time learning how to evaluate companies and understand the real stock market instead of crap like this. First off, $20,000 won't move sh*t for 99% of the stocks traded in the US. Second, you have no idea whatsoever about the "timing" involved in trades. Remember the flash crash in May? That happened because of of a few seconds blip. Hundreds of millions in trades were affected in that few seconds. So your half-baked scheme would not work.
?
2010-11-11 07:50:11 UTC
Being traders is undeniably a helpful livelihood


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